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[00:00:00] Introduction
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[00:00:00] Aurooba: Hello? Hello. How's it going?

[00:00:14] Brian: It's going amazing. How are you today?

[00:00:16] Aurooba: Oh, pretty good. It's starting to warm up here, so I'm feeling really happy that I could start going on like regular walks.

[00:00:23] Brian: ? Yeah. It's warming up here and I have a feeling that my version of warming up in your version of warming up are completely different.

[00:00:31] Aurooba: they totally are, because I still have snow and you don't have any snow, but it's still good though. All right, so I've got a today's question. Today's question to you is, what was your very first video chatting application?

[00:00:51] Brian: man, that's a hard one. I, I, I'm going to probably say either Skype.

[00:01:03] Aurooba: Mm-hmm.

[00:01:05] Brian: or, or the Google Chat, like Google Hangouts. I feel like Google Hangouts would've been the first thing that I used for video, like video chatting.

[00:01:15] Aurooba: Yeah.

[00:01:16] Brian: Does that sound right? I don't know. What was yours?

[00:01:20] Aurooba: Mine was definitely Skype. I in university, we were so excited when Skype was like a thing that we could download and use. My friend would sit in the common room in our residence and I would go into my room and we would video chat from there because we could.

[00:01:35] Brian: See, when I think of college, like I, this, I could be totally wrong on this, but I feel like even wifi was like not a widespread thing. Like we were definitely like hard lining, like. Like if you had like, I think like a T1 whatever, cable, you know, you were, you were really set. Like we were not, we were not out of like the AIM era of like online communication.

[00:01:59] Aurooba: Okay.

[00:02:00] Brian: I also wonder, there's gotta be, like, I know on messaging apps in general, there's such a culture, culture difference. Like, like Skype was never really that popular in, in like my life. But like, I wonder if like in Canada, if like just different apps that were used more regular.

[00:02:17] Aurooba: I don't know if it was a Canada thing. I was, it was more.

WhatsApp wasn't like a thing yet. Really, like I didn't even have a smartphone at this time, or maybe I did, but it was like, it was just like beginning, and a lot of people in my residence were using it as a way to connect with their overseas friends or families. and so Skype. That's how I got introduced to Skype.

And then we later used it for calls because there was this awesome call recorder for Skype that was like the first like plugin extension for that I had ever used for Skype, and it made it really easy to record calls and do interviews. ? Yeah.

[00:02:57] Brian: I think we must have had a different college experience, cuz my college was like a commuter college. It was like a Cal State, like state school. Like most of the people commuted, most of the people were, you know,

[00:03:08] Aurooba: Yeah.

[00:03:09] Brian: local. Uh, so there was not a lot of video and I don't think video calling was even like a technology at that point in time.

[00:03:18] Aurooba: That's fair. That's fair. And I mean, even though video calling had become a technology, like when I went in university, like it still wasn't like a widespread thing and it was like really fancy and most people thought it was dumb and like unnecessary, you know? Um, but.

[00:03:33] Brian: I still think that, but yeah.

[00:03:35] Aurooba: You still think that?

[00:03:38] Brian: Yeah. Do you it, I mean, I'm used to it now, but sometimes I think like, do you need to see this? Like, does this need to be in everybody's view right now?

[00:03:47] Aurooba: I just think that we pe we communicate better when we're able to see each other's like body language or at least facial expressions. Right? Which, you know, I think is a really important piece of communication in general. And so the fact that we both work remotely means that I think, you know, video is a big advantage.

[00:04:05] Our first remote jobs
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[00:04:05] Aurooba: There are cons of course, but that leads me to ask you, you know, how long have you been working remotely?

[00:04:13] Brian: Hmm. I was thinking that the first remote job I ever had was before I was in web development. I worked as a, I was a teacher and I taught at like a public school, like high school and community college for like a while. And then one year I worked at a like remote school where kids that would do like, kids going through high school and they would just like do it from home and do it through a computer.

And it was all run through like this private company, but like, on tax money . It was like a hundred percent a scam. Like it was like 100%. Like I don't even remember grading papers or like, I don't remember doing any, like, I, it was very much a scam, but it was like a remote job. So I took it and, online taught, um, for maybe a semester, a year.

Um, and there was like some proprietary, like software that we all used and stuff like that. And, uh, you know, this was, I don't know, 10 years ago or something like that. So I think online and remote school has definitely come to a better place maybe than it was then. But, um, I remember that being a sort of like remote job bef way before web development was my career and it felt like a new kind of thing.

And I honestly, that was like one of the, the big key moments of my life was like, oh, I don't have to go to an office. So that was like my first remote job.

[00:05:27] Aurooba: So you've been remote for like 10 years.

[00:05:30] Brian: There was like a two or three year stint where I was in an office in San Diego for a while and I would commute, but even a, after a few years, that started getting more and more remote. Um, so apart, there was like one period of my life where I worked in an office building for a little while and it was more of an anomaly than anything else.

[00:05:49] Aurooba: Yeah, . Um, I have been remote my entire adult life, so I have worked in an office, but that was a summer job during university, and I had a very brief three month stint at a bookstore. , Uh just part-time because I really just wanted the books discount from working there.

[00:06:15] Brian: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Aurooba: aside from that one, you know, for most of my life I have worked for myself.

And I was always remote because of that. Because if I'm working for myself and I'm like freelancing, I didn't really need to have an office or go anywhere, even though I started with a partner and we lived in close proximity to each other at first, but then I moved to a different city, so we were like totally remote.

Like I didn't even know the word remote at the time. We just said we work from home. And people never understood what we were talking about or what that event meant. They all thought we were just goofing off.

[00:06:48] Brian: I honestly can relate to your idea of working somewhere just for the discount, cuz I worked for like maybe a year as a waiter at Disneyland just so I could get into Disneyland for free. , I honestly like would just never take a shift. Like, I would take a shift like once a month just so I could keep the, pass the free pass going, go in and work like one Saturday, um, waiting tables at like somebody's like high school reunion at the Disneyland Hotel and then, uh, get free admission for the rest of the month.

[00:07:16] Aurooba: Yeah. Yeah. I think I like had a few books that I wanted to buy and I was like, oh, you know, I don't have much I'm doing right now. I could get it for way cheaper if I worked there. So I worked there. I bought a crap ton of books and then I quit.

[00:07:31] Brian: Nice. That's the way to go.

[00:07:33] Aurooba: Yeah, it

[00:07:34] Brian: I love that this has nothing to do with our topic, but

[00:07:37] Aurooba: Well, it has a little, well, okay, not the books part, but we both love to read. Um, but yeah, like today's topic is, you know, working remotely and what makes it good and what makes it bad, you know? So what are your overall thoughts around remote work?

[00:07:53] Brian: me.

[00:07:53] Overall thoughts on remote work
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[00:07:53] Aurooba: Do you like it?

[00:07:55] Brian: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. You know, the only thing I miss about driving to an office was how much I could listen to podcasts, sitting in a car. And , that would be very exciting one or two days a week. And then the rest of the week it was like, yeah, that's enough like Marc Maron, I really just don't wanna be sitting in my car anymore.

That charm wore off pretty quickly, but like there was something nice about like being alone in a car for a while, , you know? Um, but other than that, no way. I mean, I work from home. I have, you know, five kids. They're home all the time. , my house is very like jam-packed. So if people think it sounds like lonely to be like, working from home in my sense that I like constantly can just like go out and hang out with my kids or go outside or something like that.

I mean, I, I, I don't think I physically could get myself to like take a job at an office after, you know, almost a decade of working remote,

[00:08:51] Socializing and loneliness in remote work
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[00:08:51] Aurooba: Yeah, I think that the loneliness part is something people think a lot about because, you know, people don't realize it, but a lot of their social life comes from being in an office environment and their like coworkers are a big part, big part of their social life, and it's kind of like this built in network just because you are in the vicinity, but when you work from home, you actually have to make an active concerted effort, right?

To have a social life of any kind.

[00:09:19] Brian: I think that's one of the downsides I would say to remote is that I actually have worked in an office where, Maybe like your coworkers, maybe aren't. Well, I've worked in places where maybe your coworkers aren't the best influence on you, or they're just not, you're not like super close with them, but they are like your social network and you know.

And then reverse side is like, we work remote now. There's people that I work with that I really wish I could live nearby. Like there's people that are in, you know, other parts of the country that I, I actually honestly wish I could , go out after work and like hang out with them and have a beer or something like that.

So I, I do actually kind of see both sides. Like, it would be nice to be remote, but also like local if that's a thing.

[00:10:00] Aurooba: Yeah, totally. Um, I think that for me it was something that I didn't really understand until the pandemic, because I always had this social life and so I never missed it. But then when the pandemic happened and. Work was the only way to really be social. And you know, I don't have kids. I live, I am in a two person household, me and my spouse.

And so I really, really missed that a lot. And then I realized how important it was to work in an, even in a remote environment, how important it's to have some sort of social culture. You know, even if that means sometimes being stuck in front of your screen for a long time, it's like the people you work with and the environment you cultivate remotely is also really important.

And I think that a lot of companies don't realize that even now.

[00:10:50] Brian: Yeah, you can get to a place where you treat your coworkers. Customers or robots or their only value is work. You know, and you forget that like you're interacting with like real humans. Um, one of the things that changed that for me was like going to like a word camp and hanging out with a bunch of people that I had worked remotely with and never met.

And then it was like, oh yeah, we're all real humans and like, you know, being like in real life together, um, really just. I think like there has to be like some sort of a balance there because it really, you, like you said, you have to kind of remember that like there's like a social aspect to working together with people.

You're not just working only like yeah.

[00:11:33] Tools and rituals for creating boundaries
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[00:11:33] Aurooba: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, I guess that's something that I would wanna talk a little bit more about in the tools aspect. Like what are the tools that help you do your remote, like work effectively? And also make sure that you're not treating your fellow coworkers, like just inputs and outputs,

[00:11:52] Brian: Yeah. Well, that's a better way, . That's way better than how I said it. I don't know. I don't even remember what I said, but yeah, that's, that is a really good way to say it. I have one. It's not even a tool. It's, and I'm sure you have a lot to say on this. It's, it's actually just like boundaries, like it's, it's boundaries of work because when you're work is your home

and often your computer is your work and like it might also be your hobby or you know, your side project or where you pay your bills or where you, all these things like all this stuff is all starting to be in one place. So like the first tools I think that are the most crucial are just like, what are the tools that like create boundaries around your work that don't let it like bleed into your personal life and make you like on all the time.

[00:12:38] Aurooba: Right. I think that's really, really important and uh, something I've been thinking a lot about recently. So what are the tools that are helping you?

[00:12:47] Brian: Um, um, let's see. The first tool is, um, there's this thing called the Sun that's like outside in the sky. And some weeks I forget that it exists. And then other weeks I remind myself, um, honestly like that. That combined, I would even say tools as much as I would say like rituals. That has been really helpful.

Like I like to wake up early and then I like to step away for like an hour, and I like to have like moments where I like full on step away and like, and then I, you know, Didn't think I could do this, but like removing work from your phone, removing work from like other parts of your life, super helpful, makes you a better worker, makes you a better coworker.

So like using, using technology and like really clearly defining like this is work technology and this is like not work technology and like when I go outside I can not engage with work at all.

[00:13:44] Chrome versus Safari
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[00:13:44] Aurooba: Yeah, totally. I think for me, one of the ways that I sort of define those is I use Google Chrome as my primary browser and I take advantage of the profiles aspect that feature really heavily. So I have like a work profile, and that's where all my work related bookmarks are, and my work email is always signed in and everything.

And then I have a personal profile and I have a hobbies profile, and I like to keep those definitions really separate. because it e and even the colors of the browser are different. Like I have a light gray for work, a dark gray for hobbies, and then a bright green for personal . And it just helps you get better into that mindset whenever you switch to those profiles cuz you know you live in your browser like so much.

And uh, it really helps me with those boundaries. And also really important for me that I learned is I don't eat lunch at my desk anymore and it changed my life.

[00:14:40] Brian: Oh, that's a hard one. I feel really called out on this one. Um, I actually have a really great solution for that, which is you just don't eat lunch, you just work through lunch. Um, you wait until you're, it's like four in the afternoon and you're slightly lightheaded and then you go eat. you know, chips I think is the first thing.

Um, find some candy, stuff like that. You know,

[00:15:03] Aurooba: I don't eat breakfast, so I need to take lunch always.

[00:15:07] Brian: Yeah, I, I'm curious though, to go back to what you were saying about Chrome, because I've been like a Safari browser user for like a while now, and I really like, love, like, to me, Chrome is just so ugly. Like it's just such an ugly piece of software. It's like a, my, like, it blows my mind that like a browser can be so ugly when it only takes up like the tiniest little bit of space around it, but, There's so many tools that I want to use that are in Chrome and there's so many things that I have to open Chrome for anyway, and then I'm doing browser testing, Chrome.

There's all these reasons and like, I don't know, should I just use Chrome? Like should I, do you think cuz like, that sounds really nice. The profile sounds really nice, like all of that, you know, filtering things out, all that stuff.

[00:15:51] Aurooba: I think Safari has definitely improved recently, like a lot since I stopped completely using it. But now when I go into Safari, I just find that it's more of a experience curated for users and not for developers. I hate that I have to go in. If I'm on like someone else's profile, like I have to go and activate those dev tools.

You know, they're not just there for me. If I right click, I can't just go into dev tools and all those things that I do constantly, because anytime I see a cool website, no matter what, whether I'm in work mode or not, I wanna see the code and I'm like, Ooh, how did they do that Really cool thing? You know?

So I just can't handle like safari's, like insistence on hiding everything that I want away from my direct fingertips. So Chrome. Everything's right there.

[00:16:40] Brian: Yeah. And it's probably like the extensions and all of that other stuff that just like really, um, is really the, the parts that I feel like I'm missing more than that.

[00:16:49] Aurooba: Yeah. Yeah, I get it. I think there's a lot of extensions that are for Chrome, but now they're also for Safari and people do try to keep parity for some of the more popular extensions. But you're right, like the, the ecosystem around Chrome is so much more robust. . Um, and I think it's been encouraged to be so robust, right?

[00:17:10] Brian: . Safari is super performant. Like I stopped using Chrome cuz I was on an old laptop and like the fan would be like blowing in my face because of how much Chrome was using.

But like now that's not as much of an issue. And yet on Safari, once you do start putting extensions, because they don't open up as much like control, I find that those extensions on Safari like actually slow the Safari experience down. And so like that's where like safari like is so nice and minimal and everything, but you're at like Chrome is like the place to go.

This is like a really good side conversation.

[00:17:39] Aurooba: Yes. And I think we might just do an extensions, like a developer's extension focused episode. I think that would be really cool.

[00:17:46] Communication, Chat, and Notifications
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[00:17:46] Aurooba: Um, but yeah, so I think one of the things that we've touched on right in the beginning of this episode is communication is like this really key part of remote work, right?

In a way that is maybe not so emphasized when you are working in person. So tell me a little bit about what you think when it comes to communication in a remote work environment. Uh, the downsides, what, how you actually think it should be done and what your experience has been like.

[00:18:15] Brian: Well, I just assume, I don't know if this is true, but I just assume that every remote team uses Slack or something similar to Slack like a Teams, which is, you know, essentially a Slack. I think like me, like you love like Cal Newport and his sort of like preaching against, you know, that sort of like chat based, like running everything through chats, everything is just chatting and talking and you know,

[00:18:38] Aurooba: Yeah,

[00:18:39] Brian: that it, yeah.

And so, you know, at the end of the day, like that is gonna be the way things are handled is a lot of like slack, um, and. . You know, I honestly wish I could say like, oh, here's the best way to handle it. But what I'm finding is that I am not good at handling Slack. I'm not good at not checking notifications.

Like I can give you all the things you shouldn't do that like add anxiety to your life

[00:19:04] Aurooba: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:05] Brian: I'm like, I'm like really trying to focus on like, how do you use a tool where literally anybody can steal your attention and say anything to you in a completely different context, across multiple projects, multiple teams, all these different things happening at once.

Um, and like stay sane and focused and you know, obviously one piece of it is like you really have to learn to like, allow notifications to pile up a little bit. Like you really have to be, you have to be okay not looking and like, that's, that's the piece I'm working on.

[00:19:36] Aurooba: That's really difficult for me too. I had to turn the badges in Slack off because I cannot handle them. I can't handle seeing that red button like Red, red little badge with the numbers accumulating because I get so much anxiety from it. And like I am at that point where I'm wondering if I wanna turn off notifications, like the little notifications on your computer that show up from Slack.

I'm wondering if I should just turn those off so that I control my attention and where it wants to go and be like, oh, now I wanna deal with all the craziness in Slack, and now I'm gonna go there and deal with those notifications, versus like letting it control my attention and letting it get diverted so easily, you know?

[00:20:19] Brian: I think one of the worst things you can do on a remote team is see a message that comes in, read the message that comes in. Maybe even say, oh, I'll take care of this to that person. And then poof, it's gone up the infinite scroll of, of conversations and you never come back to it again. And that my, my new method has been in Slack in particular, I hit like, there's like a save, like, where you kind of like save things and I just like save a lot of things.

And then I do like a regular, you know, every other hour. So I'll go through my saved and be like, okay, now I have time to respond to these things and stuff like that. Um, it's kind of like a nice way, it's kind of like the best, like mark as unread kind of like workflow that I can come up with.

But to me, I would rather not get a response from somebody than get a response that says like, uh, like I'm getting you a resp- like I'm dealing with this. But then like, it doesn't actually happen cuz it's just like goes. And so I'm trying not to do that to people.

[00:21:17] Aurooba: I'm, because since you've told me about that, I'm trying to do that too. But my default behavior is to use the, "remind me about this" functionality in Slack. And I constantly will say, oh, okay. I read the message and then I'll tell Slack, Hey, remind me about this in like an hour. Remind me about this.

And then it keeps bugging you and it like forces you to mark it as complete when you've actually like dealt with it. So that has been kind of helpful for me to like deal with like having seen it, but not actually having an inbox. Like the fact that Slack doesn't have an inbox of some kind or some way to track like the things that you're paying attention to.

Drives me up a wall sometimes.

[00:21:55] Brian: That's why I think you should try the saved items. Because what you're doing is you have a notification and you're, you're hitting the snooze button on your alarm clock. You're like, snooze, hit me again in 20 minutes. And we all know it happens. You just keep snoozing and you just keep snoozing. So like the saved items creates, there's one page you can go to and it's just a list of every

Message that you think is important and you can just start at the bottom and work your way up. It turns it into like a little email inbox of like, here's the messages I actually cared about when I read them, but like didn't have time to answer them. , cuz I think the worst thing you can do is like leave people hanging and that's when you know that.

or that other piece, which is ignoring, like, forgetting that not everybody's in the room at the same time. You know what I mean?

[00:22:41] Aurooba: Yes, the asynchronous part of remote life, especially when we're all in different time zones. I mean, you and I are in different time zones right now, right?

[00:22:49] Brian: Yeah.

[00:22:50] Timezones and Async Conversations
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[00:22:50] Aurooba: Um, yeah. So how do you handle that, especially when you have multiple time zones to deal with?

[00:22:57] Brian: I mean, how do you handle, how do you?

[00:22:58] Aurooba: How do I handle it? Well, I think one of the most important things that I try to remember is that not everyone is going to be around at the same time.

So if I am having a conversation in a synchronous manner with someone, but there are other stakeholders in that conversation, (and that's just a fancy word of, fancy way of saying, you know, other people whose input is required or is important or valuable), then I decide, I try my best not to make those decisions without them and remember that they're gonna chime in when they're around.

But you know, there needs to be a limit to that. So like, I like to say, Hey, uh, let's give this conversation like, 24 hours, or if it's like really urgent, maybe four hours or something like that to make sure everyone is able to chime in, say their piece, and then we make a decision and then we actually document it in that thread or in that channel in the most appropriate way.

So everyone knows what that decision has been made to be. Right.

[00:23:56] Brian: Yeah, I mean, I think that makes sense. I think like what gets hard is really just understanding that like our culture keeps like moving faster and faster and the expectation is that decisions become faster and faster and conversations move faster. So like knowing, like is this a decision that has to be made in an hour or is this a decision that has to be made in a day and like, you know, waiting. You know, like a sense of priority so that when something comes in, you're kind of like, do I need to look at this right now? Because sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. And like understanding the context of all those things and like having roles of, of who really is responsible for quickly answering things and who really is

you know, gonna get like a day or two to answer and like doesn't need anything right now. And this is like a hard, a hard balance. And it's like one of those things that a team just kinda has to explore and like come up with on their own because it's easy to say, um, you know, we all work async, and you could go and watch your kids play a basketball game for three hours and come back or whatever.

But once people start relying on each other, pushing that back, it starts to create these like friction points because the expectations don't really match, you know, the actual need for feedback and the need for instantaneous conversation. So,

[00:25:18] Aurooba: So I think one of the things that I've been trying to do about that personally is I'm trying not to be instantaneous. Even if I can be you know, give people the ability to say, oh look, Aurooba took like, I don't know, half an hour, one hour, two hours to respond to this. That means I can take that time too.

Like I'm trying to like replica- like be a role model in that sense. Like, uh, exhibit the behavior. That says, Hey, you're allowed to actually take time. You're allowed to be truly asynchronous because look, even I'm not like instantaneous in this moment or ever. Uh, but it is very hard because I wanna be able to not think about it and just like, check it off and be like, "done.

I handled that." You know? So you're right. It's a very difficult balance, uh, to achieve. And I, I, I couldn't tell you, I couldn't say that I have achieved this balance.

[00:26:11] Synchronous Meetings
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[00:26:11] Brian: And I will say like one thing, I think that remote work should lean into a little bit more is synchronous conversation because I do think there is a sense of like, oh, that meeting should have been an email and like nobody likes time wasting meetings. And like any meeting with like more than two or three people is probably a waste of at least one person's time.

But I do think like, The idea that you can sit down in real time and like dig through an issue and be like, that's a great question. Let's all meet, you know, at this other time and we'll all hash it out in real time and then we'll move on with our lives and we'll actually get to like, , you know, do that.

And we'll also get to like, interact as human beings, like in a social environment instead of input output. Dm, dm, you know, I'm guilty of the like, oh, this shouldn't have been a meeting. But like, there can be good meetings, you know.

[00:26:58] Aurooba: Yes, I agree. And there are things that are difficult to figure out without like gauging, like coming back to our like whole video chatting conversation. Sometimes you need to be able to see someone's expression or hear their tone in order to like have that conversation in the best way possible. You know?

And that's where meetings, I think really shine. Like synchronous meetings, actual meetings, you know.

[00:27:21] Brian: Yeah, as long as you can limit it because there is that zoom fatigue where like you've been on camera for so long that your face is hurting. Like, it just like it hurts your face and you're just like, stop, stop looking at me camera. Yeah, but

[00:27:36] Aurooba: I totally get it.

[00:27:37] Brian: Jumping on quick calls with, not with clients, with coworkers, with colleagues, you know, always works out.

I don't like jumping on a call with like a client out of nowhere. Like I need a day to process that I'm gonna have to talk to, but like a colleague, you know, just jumping in and like looking at some code together or something. Like that's actually just like a nice thing when you can.

[00:27:57] Aurooba: Yeah. And it's also usually a lot more time effective, you know, like you can just like jump on, do this thing, handle it, and then be done with it, you know? Um, obviously it's really nice to have that asynchronous option, but you're right, like sync. We need to not automatically equate synchronous communication with bad in the context of remote work.

[00:28:18] Our advice for remote work
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[00:28:18] Aurooba: So, you've been working remotely for a long time. So have I. If you had to give advice to someone who's starting remote work now, what advice would you give them? Like what is your top piece of information or thing you would want them to keep in mind?

[00:28:34] Brian: , I'll just go back to boundaries. Like I think that's the biggest, most important part of remote work is like, in my house, it's like if I'm in my office apart from like five minutes ago, the kids are not supposed to try to get into my office while I'm working.

Cuz they're just supposed to know, like that's just like the door's closed. This is like a protected time. That's a boundary. And then reversely, once I do walk out of the door it's my job to leave work behind me leave it in the office and take a minute and like breathe it out and be that other person, you know, with my family.

[00:29:06] Aurooba: I agree with that. And so I will add the other part to that I would say is part of remote life is being very, uh, intentional about how you communicate with your coworkers and for the most part, , it's better to overcommunicate than to under communi. , uh, and just be lo because people can't see you, so they don't know what's going on until you tell them.

So it's really important that you, uh, communicate what's going on, what you're thinking on a far more regular basis than you would feel you have to do in an in-person environment. So if you combine like boundaries and being over communicative, kind of, I think that's like a really good, like core foundations for good remote work life and balance.

[00:29:53] Brian: Yeah, and like with over communicating, it's like slow communicating, you know? Breathe slow.

[00:29:59] Aurooba: Yeah,

[00:30:00] Brian: Take your time. Write a complete sentence, like, don't throw like two words at a person. Like take the time, communicate thoughtfully, slowly. It's okay. We're all gonna be okay.

[00:30:11] Aurooba: yeah. It's like the whole low res versus high res communication article. Right. We can throw, throw the link to that in the show notes, but when I first read that article, it was just like, this is gold

[00:30:21] Brian: Yeah. As somebody who believes that, writing is how you figure out like what you're thinking on a topic. The idea of having to explain yourself in writing to your coworkers. Most often you'll write it and then you'll like start deleting it. Cause you're like, I answered my own question by just writing it out.

, I actually don't need to bug anybody. Like I was gonna message you like, where is this one thing? And then as I was writing it, I was like, I know the answer now because , you're just gonna be like, go look in the folder and I'll be like, yeah. So.

[00:30:49] Aurooba: Yeah, that, that happens to me a lot too. But yeah, I think this was a bit of a different conversation than we've had in the past. But I think it's really important to have conversations like this because as developers, you know, it's really important that we are developing not just our coding skills, but also our sort of teamwork and communication skills, right?

Those soft skills, as some people like to call it.

[00:31:13] Brian: Yeah. Collaboration is super important. Um, so learning how to not just be like a solo coder, but like fitting into a group and, and that honestly has less to do with the quality of your code as it does with your communication skills and like, you know, overall mental health . So

[00:31:30] Aurooba: Yeah, a hundred

[00:31:31] Brian: important stuff.

[00:31:34] Aurooba: All right, well I think this was a pretty good conversation. We answered a lot of questions and uh, I'll see you back here next week then.

[00:31:41] Brian: All right, next week.

[00:31:43] Aurooba: Bye.